A lovely tribute to marriage. Thank you. I think that it's true that the longer you're in a good marriage, the more you come to value it. Marrying my husband of over three decades was the best thing I ever did, and I love him more now than I did the day I married him. It's true that the older you get, the more grateful you become.
Our 32-year-old son -- a younger Millennial -- is actively wife-shopping right now. He's a highly-skilled trades guy (six years in trades college, three certifications) with a house, shop, truck, two dogs, and a promising new advanced manufacturing business he's getting off the ground. Having been raised by us, he's egalitarian, and knows how to show up for a partner. He's a hair under six feet, blond, cute, smart (though neurospicy), funny, outgoing, easy-going, and has a clear plan for his future that includes being a husband and dad. This should not be hard, right?
But it is. He's kind of in a tough spot because, as a technically working-class guy, he's not that interesting to women with BAs (who are wary that trades guys will tend to want traditionalist relationships, and are usually looking for someone with more equivalent education). Worse: the women he finds online seem to have been badly damaged by growing up in online culture. He calls me after dates with woeful tales: that they want to spend endless money chasing an Instagram appearance standard he finds creepy, or have seriously unhealthy sexual boundaries, or have mental health or substance abuse issues, or are simply angry at men. His dating landscape is a minefield of female trauma -- and he's having a hard time navigating through it to find a partner who's able to bring her whole healthy self to the partnership, and is not liable to blow up the hard-earned stability of his life (which has happened a couple of times already).
I don't know what to tell him. (If anybody has thoughts, please share them.) But your message that Millennials are indeed getting married and mostly getting it right gives me some hope. His older sister has been married for seven years, and they're doing very well. But he's dating mostly Gen Z women in their mid- to late 20s, and he seems to be up against a whole new wave of issues in his dating pool that she didn't have to face.
This is a very good comment. Sadly the things we liberals want and think others should want, such as egalitarian relationships, are not always or, depending on location and other life circumstances, even usually what the people around us want. I’m a bit skeptical of the “shortage of egalitarian men” thesis of this article for that reason.
It sounds like your son is struggling to meet like-minded people and the internet is matching him with women who do not share his values. My advice would be for him to try and think of ways he can meet and connect with people more similar to him. Of course I don’t know him so that could mean anything from asking friends and family to set him up to joining meetups to moving to a new city. He could also try being up-front about his egalitarian values and what he’s looking for in his dating profiles and early conversations. That might cut against the occupational stereotypes he’s being slotted into and prevent him from wasting time on people who want different things.
Finding like-minded people can definitely be tough and having the “right” values doesn’t make it any easier. I hope things work out!
He's not a heavily online person to start with -- has always preferred in-person interactions -- so he's looking for more places to hang out to meet people. Dog parks, maker spaces (full of other people who like working with their hands), and meetups are his first round of options. He also likes speed-dating (he makes a great first impression), so there's more of that ahead, too.
And I've been pushing him to ask his married friends' wives (there are several, and they're mostly great women) to keep an eye out for possible matches. This is how we did it in the old days, and it's tried-and-true. The fact that most of his longtime friends are now marrying and the babies are starting to arrive says that he's at least hanging with people who validate his desire for a family of his own, which is some kind of start.
The list of red flags he's watching for is growing rapidly, which I'm grateful for on one hand; but I'm also afraid it might eventually grow so long that he'll lose all incentive to keep looking. That's how people burn out on dating entirely.
Thanks for placing the blame for declining marriage rates squarely where it belongs-on the shoulders of misogynist men and religious fundamentalists who view women as appliances designed purely for male convenience.
But you kind of lost me with the container analogy. It kind of sounds like you’re saying “I don’t have to worry about being good and present for my friends any more cos I’ve got my husband and if I’m “dumb” and “start” arguments with him it’s gonna be a lot more inconvenient and expensive for us to split up than it would be to just blow off a long friendship. The problem with letting your friendships slide and deprioritizing them is that if your marriage ever becomes untenable for you (I hope it doesn’t but it most certainly is not invulnerable no matter how great you think it is now) your friendships will not be as supportive for you because you’ve deprioritized them. This is another example of how marriage to men hurts women. It isolates them. And you are encouraging women to isolate themselves in their marriage with this “container” business. I’m more inclined to believe in the “alternative family structures” e.g. women living together romantically or not and helping each other-but if famous journalist that call themselves feminists keep holding marriage to men who are so great (they are doing 20% more at home than their dads did, WOW!) as superior (I guess because it’s what we’ve got right now in the way of a social norm?) those alternative arrangements will be slower to come about.
In defense of (good, equal, and soul-enriching) marriage... I loved this. Marriage as a concept has always been so attractive.
I am also drawn to the concept of legalizing/formalizing other relationships that are not marriage, but I think (based on no empirical data), society is so far away from that because for many, it seems friendship seems like a cherished container until you are married. Or, alternatively, when you are married, naturally friendships change, and that comes with its emotional side effects for the unmarried/unpartnered friends. I can think of at least 3 friends whose weddings I've been in that I no longer have friendships with because the marriage is (obviously) more important and maybe that's my personal problem, but yeah, I don't know that friendship will ever be cherished in the way marriage is and for people who find themselves perpetually unpartnered, there seems to be a tension (with and about marriage) for many idiosyncratic reasons. Nevertheless, I do think "the left" should embrace marriage just as tightly as the right. I really enjoyed this piece, thank you!
Your observations on marriage seem to me overwhelmingly accurate. But this . . . post? essay?--is far too wordy. You could have made all the same points in half the verbiage--and the writing would have been more impactful.
Men on the internet: "Being single is great. No nagging bitch telling you what to do. Lots of extra money. Complete and total freedom. So stay single gents, and don't get married!"
Also men on the internet: "Women ruined marriage!"
Joe Rogan is also still Andrew Tate-esque, we 100% don’t need him imo or his ilk on the Left and he’s not how you win back the Gen Z men in the Right-wing manosphere right now btw that joined Trump’s hate cult by telling them what they want to hear not the truth.
They need to hear concrete ways in which their lives will be improved economically, how women rising also benefits them in turn in that regard not keeping them down, etc. etc.
A lovely tribute to marriage. Thank you. I think that it's true that the longer you're in a good marriage, the more you come to value it. Marrying my husband of over three decades was the best thing I ever did, and I love him more now than I did the day I married him. It's true that the older you get, the more grateful you become.
Our 32-year-old son -- a younger Millennial -- is actively wife-shopping right now. He's a highly-skilled trades guy (six years in trades college, three certifications) with a house, shop, truck, two dogs, and a promising new advanced manufacturing business he's getting off the ground. Having been raised by us, he's egalitarian, and knows how to show up for a partner. He's a hair under six feet, blond, cute, smart (though neurospicy), funny, outgoing, easy-going, and has a clear plan for his future that includes being a husband and dad. This should not be hard, right?
But it is. He's kind of in a tough spot because, as a technically working-class guy, he's not that interesting to women with BAs (who are wary that trades guys will tend to want traditionalist relationships, and are usually looking for someone with more equivalent education). Worse: the women he finds online seem to have been badly damaged by growing up in online culture. He calls me after dates with woeful tales: that they want to spend endless money chasing an Instagram appearance standard he finds creepy, or have seriously unhealthy sexual boundaries, or have mental health or substance abuse issues, or are simply angry at men. His dating landscape is a minefield of female trauma -- and he's having a hard time navigating through it to find a partner who's able to bring her whole healthy self to the partnership, and is not liable to blow up the hard-earned stability of his life (which has happened a couple of times already).
I don't know what to tell him. (If anybody has thoughts, please share them.) But your message that Millennials are indeed getting married and mostly getting it right gives me some hope. His older sister has been married for seven years, and they're doing very well. But he's dating mostly Gen Z women in their mid- to late 20s, and he seems to be up against a whole new wave of issues in his dating pool that she didn't have to face.
This is a very good comment. Sadly the things we liberals want and think others should want, such as egalitarian relationships, are not always or, depending on location and other life circumstances, even usually what the people around us want. I’m a bit skeptical of the “shortage of egalitarian men” thesis of this article for that reason.
It sounds like your son is struggling to meet like-minded people and the internet is matching him with women who do not share his values. My advice would be for him to try and think of ways he can meet and connect with people more similar to him. Of course I don’t know him so that could mean anything from asking friends and family to set him up to joining meetups to moving to a new city. He could also try being up-front about his egalitarian values and what he’s looking for in his dating profiles and early conversations. That might cut against the occupational stereotypes he’s being slotted into and prevent him from wasting time on people who want different things.
Finding like-minded people can definitely be tough and having the “right” values doesn’t make it any easier. I hope things work out!
He's not a heavily online person to start with -- has always preferred in-person interactions -- so he's looking for more places to hang out to meet people. Dog parks, maker spaces (full of other people who like working with their hands), and meetups are his first round of options. He also likes speed-dating (he makes a great first impression), so there's more of that ahead, too.
And I've been pushing him to ask his married friends' wives (there are several, and they're mostly great women) to keep an eye out for possible matches. This is how we did it in the old days, and it's tried-and-true. The fact that most of his longtime friends are now marrying and the babies are starting to arrive says that he's at least hanging with people who validate his desire for a family of his own, which is some kind of start.
The list of red flags he's watching for is growing rapidly, which I'm grateful for on one hand; but I'm also afraid it might eventually grow so long that he'll lose all incentive to keep looking. That's how people burn out on dating entirely.
Thanks for placing the blame for declining marriage rates squarely where it belongs-on the shoulders of misogynist men and religious fundamentalists who view women as appliances designed purely for male convenience.
But you kind of lost me with the container analogy. It kind of sounds like you’re saying “I don’t have to worry about being good and present for my friends any more cos I’ve got my husband and if I’m “dumb” and “start” arguments with him it’s gonna be a lot more inconvenient and expensive for us to split up than it would be to just blow off a long friendship. The problem with letting your friendships slide and deprioritizing them is that if your marriage ever becomes untenable for you (I hope it doesn’t but it most certainly is not invulnerable no matter how great you think it is now) your friendships will not be as supportive for you because you’ve deprioritized them. This is another example of how marriage to men hurts women. It isolates them. And you are encouraging women to isolate themselves in their marriage with this “container” business. I’m more inclined to believe in the “alternative family structures” e.g. women living together romantically or not and helping each other-but if famous journalist that call themselves feminists keep holding marriage to men who are so great (they are doing 20% more at home than their dads did, WOW!) as superior (I guess because it’s what we’ve got right now in the way of a social norm?) those alternative arrangements will be slower to come about.
In defense of (good, equal, and soul-enriching) marriage... I loved this. Marriage as a concept has always been so attractive.
I am also drawn to the concept of legalizing/formalizing other relationships that are not marriage, but I think (based on no empirical data), society is so far away from that because for many, it seems friendship seems like a cherished container until you are married. Or, alternatively, when you are married, naturally friendships change, and that comes with its emotional side effects for the unmarried/unpartnered friends. I can think of at least 3 friends whose weddings I've been in that I no longer have friendships with because the marriage is (obviously) more important and maybe that's my personal problem, but yeah, I don't know that friendship will ever be cherished in the way marriage is and for people who find themselves perpetually unpartnered, there seems to be a tension (with and about marriage) for many idiosyncratic reasons. Nevertheless, I do think "the left" should embrace marriage just as tightly as the right. I really enjoyed this piece, thank you!
Your observations on marriage seem to me overwhelmingly accurate. But this . . . post? essay?--is far too wordy. You could have made all the same points in half the verbiage--and the writing would have been more impactful.
Smug married gloating. It’s a form of conspicuous consumption.
Men on the internet: "Being single is great. No nagging bitch telling you what to do. Lots of extra money. Complete and total freedom. So stay single gents, and don't get married!"
Also men on the internet: "Women ruined marriage!"
Joe Rogan is also still Andrew Tate-esque, we 100% don’t need him imo or his ilk on the Left and he’s not how you win back the Gen Z men in the Right-wing manosphere right now btw that joined Trump’s hate cult by telling them what they want to hear not the truth.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/andrew-tate-joe-rogan-manosphere-110233891.html
They need to hear concrete ways in which their lives will be improved economically, how women rising also benefits them in turn in that regard not keeping them down, etc. etc.
Related, married women have higher fertility rates. Delayed marriage and fewer marriages are contributors to declining fertility rates.